Charlie:
The questions we wrestle with as Christians about who God is, how do we live out our faith, what is the Bible, what is the truth of the Bible, what are we supposed to believe? How are we supposed to live? There are really big, deep questions that we ask each other, that we ask God, that we wrestle with ourselves. And that’s why the Cultivate podcast exists, to help us go deeper in our understanding of who God is, his word and the way that he’s called us to live. Everyone welcome to the cultivate podcast with the Grove Church. I’m Charlie Lofton lead pastor there and we have our excellent producer, amazing cohosts, Abigail Boone. What’s up? So my mom I was talking to my mom yesterday. Oh, boy. She was she said, I I really enjoyed the podcast. Like, okay.

Charlie:
And I asked her, did she watch it or listen? Right. And she watches it on YouTube. So I really like that girl that was on on this week, but then she was comparing you

Abigail:
Oh, no.

Charlie:
To the girl that was on the week before, which was also you.

Abigail:
Oh, okay. Okay.

Charlie:
Like, Ma, it’s the same person.

Abigail:
I look different.

Charlie:
It’s always Abigail. It’s always always Abigail.

Abigail:
Different outfit, new days.

Charlie:
Anyways, so you you given off a good aura, but also different auras.

Abigail:
Sure. Sure. You can think I’m different people. That’s right. So we

Charlie:
are in a series right now where we’re kind of working our way through some systematic theology topics, and we kinda defined what that is, kind of understanding what the Bible says more in just kind of theological categories. We kinda talked about what those 10 main categories are at different time. I’ll make you see if you

Abigail:
can get them all 10.

Charlie:
And we kinda talked about why it’s important, and we talked about the difference between important things and foundational things. And we if you did not hear that, I encourage you to go back and watch that episode. And then the plan was to spend 2 sessions talking about theology proper, which is

Abigail:
Study of God.

Charlie:
The study of God. Yeah. But theology proper them. Like, you know, theologies of study

Abigail:
is proper,

Charlie:
but we also use it as a broad term for Yeah. All the stuff theology proper is who is God. And so we’re gonna do, just a couple of episodes, but then we’re like, we just kinda got into it, and we just had to keep going. We did a Trinity episode Yes. And then we did a episode on kind of his superlative characteristics, the omnis Mhmm. If you will, omnipresent. And we just the discussion was so good. We had to call it, and so we’re bonus.

Abigail:
Riddle me this is Bonus track. Is omnibenevolent a real word?

Charlie:
What do you mean by real word?

Abigail:
Well, I get the little dash red mark whenever I’m typing it into things.

Charlie:
Well, I’m for it it is a it is a word that is used in mostly in Christian theological circles.

Abigail:
Okay.

Charlie:
And so it is it is such a in house word that it would not surprise me that if it was you know? I mean, you might check pneumatology and see if that was a

Abigail:
Okay.

Charlie:
If if you probably get a red squiggle from that, I was like, what what exactly do you hear? So Okay. Anyways, it is a it is a real word.

Abigail:
Okay. It is a real word.

Charlie:
Rarely used. K. Certainly outside of Christian theological discussions on theology.

Abigail:
Accepted.

Charlie:
K. But I feel like we’ve left some things unsaid, so we got this bonus episode where we’re talk continue to talk about the character of God. And I think I would like to start with omnibenevolent Mhmm. Which one of the things we said, and we spent some time talking about this last episode just about what does it mean that God is fully loving. Mhmm. God is all loving, and we have had this discussion before on this podcast. I think in a different episode, we talked about the problem of evil.

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
God is all powerful. God is all loving. There’s suffering in the world. How do we make sense of that? Mhmm. And so when we think about all loving, we usually get into a place where how can God be all loving and

Abigail:
x happens. Yeah.

Charlie:
Which I think is important for then us to kinda go back and say and I’ll ask you a question, and then maybe you can ask me a question. When we say that God is loving, what do we mean by that word? What does it mean when we say God is loving?

Abigail:
That only goodness can come from him. Only good things.

Charlie:
Only good things. So then we have to keep going. What is good things? Is a good thing?

Abigail:
Things that are pro oh, that was gonna sound political. I was gonna say pro life.

Charlie:
But Oh.

Abigail:
In the in the sense of things that are multiplying, flourishing, human flourishing, anything that is flourishing of the humankind.

Charlie:
Okay. I’ll say that. So god would never do something

Abigail:
That would stunt human flourishing. Okay.

Charlie:
And yet

Abigail:
That does happen.

Charlie:
Yet it does happen. Correct. I mean, there, I mean, there are examples in the Bible where it’s, you know, where it would seem from one perspective that this is this is not good based on your definition of good, and therefore not loving based on your definition of loving. Right. And so I think one of the problems that we have is that we we we describe God as all loving, and we act like that not only is it’s like the defining characteristic and perhaps really the kind of the only characteristic. Everything else is

Abigail:
hit or miss.

Charlie:
Well, everything else is based on that. Sure. Yeah. It it it falls from that. It is kind of the the the decoder ring that kind of defines all other all other characteristics. And I think what I would like to do is to add a couple of more that we can kind of put in there. If I were to say God is just, would we think that is a good characteristic or bad characteristic?

Abigail:
Good. Good. Right. Good. I think good.

Charlie:
Right? God is holy. Good. Good. Okay. Are there examples where loving the way that you’ve defined loving and justice conflict?

Abigail:
In my American view of it, yes. But in the textbook definition, no.

Charlie:
Well, just in the in the in the and kind of the yeah. And then kind of just a little kind of pop definition that you just gave for loving and good.

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
They’re to execute some types of justice would feel like Right.

Abigail:
It what was it? Human flourishing.

Charlie:
Against human flourishing in some ways. Right? And then you add holiness to it, and holiness is a word that at its at its core, what it means is set apart just different than. It’s just like, and one of the best examples of this is did you have did you guys have, good plates growing up?

Abigail:
Yeah. Like the the China. Right.

Charlie:
So there’s, like, we’re just having hot dogs today. There’s those plates, then there’s regular dinner

Abigail:
Mhmm.

Charlie:
Plates, and then there’s

Abigail:
Christmas dinner.

Charlie:
Christmas dinner plate. Right?

Abigail:
Yeah. Yeah.

Charlie:
And so at that it by the by the by the textbook definition of holy, your Christmas plates Are holy. Holy plates. They kind of have a set apart. They have a set apartness. They are not regular.

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
They are they are holy.

Abigail:
Mhmm.

Charlie:
So you say, well, they have to say, well, in what way are they set apart? Well, so when you ask that question about God, when we say God is holy, in what way is he set apart from us? What’s not just in his stature, holiness, when we talk about God being holy, he is set apart from us Morally is is kind of the biggest one, and because he is so he is perfect and we are so imperfect, the gap there is huge.

Abigail:
Mhmm. And he

Charlie:
is set apart, and and and there necessarily must be distance.

Abigail:
Couldn’t it also be creator and created?

Charlie:
Yeah. But in but but, again, in the way that we use holiness the most, the context in which we use holy the most, it is almost always referring to character. Okay. Not just in his his ownership or his bigness, but just in his in his in his character. Mhmm. If if I mean, this is a mediocre metaphor.

Abigail:
Okay.

Charlie:
If we were to say that God is clean, then what could God have in common with dirt? He would have to keep dirt Off of them. Away. Right? Because he is he is clean. Right. And if he is always clean and a 100% clean, then dirt necessarily has to be separated from him. Mhmm. So if God is holy in his character,

Abigail:
Then those things have to be kept the way.

Charlie:
Sin has to be Right. Kept at some distance Mhmm. Because he is set apart from it Yeah. Which gets us into the gospel and Jesus, but that’s a different category

Abigail:
Mhmm.

Charlie:
For systematic theology. And so if God is just, which means he he gives good when good is required, and punishes when punishment is required, and is holy, therefore, he’s clean and dirt has to stay over there. He is perfect and sin has to stay over there. Then what is the loving way to deal with sin?

Abigail:
The way that he does it? Seems like he’s got the right way.

Charlie:
Right. And and and and so when I work now we’re trying to figure out nuances here.

Abigail:
Well, it seems like it would have to have honesty and justice to be loving.

Charlie:
Right.

Abigail:
That you would have to be honest with the reality of the sin, and you would have to be just in pain for what it is really due. You couldn’t, like, sugarcoat or whatever. A loving response would be honest and just.

Charlie:
Right. But so then if that if that if the honest, just thing is a punishment, and from our perspective is a severe punishment, then then we start to question loving because now we have a hard time putting these

Abigail:
Mhmm.

Charlie:
All of these characteristics together. So a different way that I like to talk about it, which I think is can be kind of helpful for us, is to think of it not in terms of loving versus these other things. Let’s just say let’s just say that I’m willing to say that God is all loving and ever even I’m gonna say, and and it is the defining characteristic. What what does love mean then becomes the question, but I think the contrast isn’t between love and punishment, but between grace and justice. Okay. So I’m gonna define some terms here, and then I’m a I’m a define one, and then you’re gonna help me with the rest of them. Okay. Justice is someone always gets what they deserve.

Charlie:
So when we say God is just, he he gives someone exactly what they deserve.

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
So if if you do good, you get good. If you do bad, you get bad. Right. K. What is grace?

Abigail:
Getting what you don’t deserve from what you did.

Charlie:
Getting a good thing

Abigail:
When you deserved a bad thing.

Charlie:
Or just a good thing you didn’t deserve. Okay.

Abigail:
So you’re neutral, but it’s gonna be positive.

Charlie:
Neutral or bad, but you get something good. My favorite example of that is Christmas present.

Abigail:
Yes.

Charlie:
So it’s Christmas. Maybe if you aren’t, like, your birthday. Like, I survived a year. Give me a present. Right. But Christmas is Jesus’ birthday.

Abigail:
Right. And we just get gifts.

Charlie:
Why do you get a present on Jesus’ birthday? I was born.

Abigail:
Yeah. I

Charlie:
mean, that is, like, to me the the prototypical definition of grace. It is a good it is a good thing unearned.

Abigail:
Okay. Yeah. I like that.

Charlie:
So a

Abigail:
good thing unearned. Thing unearned.

Charlie:
Okay. Mercy.

Abigail:
You should have been punished, but you weren’t. Right. Or something bad you did.

Charlie:
I see. So something bad, like, you you broke some rule at home, and, normally, you would get punished. And your dad says, this time, I won’t.

Abigail:
But don’t make it a second time.

Charlie:
I don’t know. Yeah. Alright. And then also use that word, like, in in courtrooms where a defendant will place himself at the mercy of the court. Mhmm. I did it. I technically deserve the punishment. I’m asking for mercy.

Charlie:
I’m not asking for mitigating circumstances. I’m not saying I didn’t do it. I’m not saying if you if you look at it just like this, maybe you shouldn’t punish me. It is the right thing for you to punish me. But instead of asking you

Abigail:
Mhmm.

Charlie:
To instead be merciful. Right. Okay. What is a reward? For doing something good.

Abigail:
Yeah. So I get a reward if you did something good.

Charlie:
I did something good, so I got something good. Punishment

Abigail:
It’s what you get for doing something bad.

Charlie:
I did something bad. I get something bad. So punishment and reward are elements of justice. Mhmm. That’s kind of the two sides of justice. Right. Grace and mercy are

Abigail:
On a different playing field?

Charlie:
Yeah. They’re not they’re not just.

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
That if God is gracious, he is by these these particular definitions. He is not being just. Right. He is instead being gracious. He’s instead being merciful. The, and so the Bible describes God as being just.

Abigail:
Mhmm.

Charlie:
He is always just. And, typically, what that means is he will never be, one more word, cruel. Okay.

Abigail:
What is cruel? Mhmm. Unnecessarily mean.

Charlie:
Right. A bad thing happens. And so you make it And I’d I but I didn’t deserve it. Right. Yeah. You know? You you just you just take out your anger on someone who doesn’t deserve who doesn’t that’s that’s cruelty. Mhmm. And so God is just in that he will never be cruel.

Abigail:
Mhmm.

Charlie:
But God is not always just in in in specifics because sometimes he is gracious and merciful. Yeah. So we can count on God to always be just, but if he is not, it is always to our benefit.

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
He will be merciful. He will be gracious. And then we’ll get into this more when we talk about the gospel. So because reconciling those things is like, okay, sin deserves a consequence. God chooses to be merciful and gracious with us, but yet Jesus had to die. And so there was a sense in which there was a part of God’s justice that had to be satisfied. So Jesus did die, but even Jesus dying then He spared us. Is the act of grace and mercy for you, but God still maintains

Abigail:
Mhmm.

Charlie:
His justice. He just Jesus was the substitute.

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
And so I think we get been out of shape a little bit because if God is being gracious in one instance, he should be being gracious in all instances. Wow. And or we get been out of shape of we we just aren’t willing to really acknowledge that that justice is a good characteristic, at least when it applies to me.

Abigail:
Do you think that this is harder for us to understand because we think so individually rather than collectively?

Charlie:
That is most certainly a part of it because, let’s say, like, if natural disasters, you know, what is that a just punishment for? It’s people in North Carolina hadn’t done anything specifically

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
To deserve that or some sort of famine or drought or something like that. It’s like, what is that a specific punishment for to those people? What did those people do worse than these people that this thing happened to them? Mhmm.

Abigail:
You

Charlie:
know? Some and and so well, then that is an example of God being unjust because they got a punishment that they didn’t deserve. When in reality, almost every way that God talks about people, it’s when he says you, when he talks about he he’s almost always talking about it in a plural

Abigail:
sense. Right.

Charlie:
Which, again, we’re we’re we’re just not like that. It’s like everything that happens to me should be a direct result of something that I did.

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
We don’t think of we don’t think in collective terms. Mhmm.

Abigail:
I mean,

Charlie:
even just we’ve said the word collective 3 or 4 times now, and we’re gonna get put on some list for being communists. Just using the use of the word collective.

Abigail:
The cold war.

Charlie:
Not Did you say bring back

Abigail:
the cold I’m just kidding. That was a joke. That was a

Charlie:
joke. Jokes.

Abigail:
These are jokes. Redacted.

Charlie:
Yeah. And so I I think that is that is a big part of it, and that that that we collectively have broken the world, and it’s gonna manifest itself in different ways, and it is a just punishment for us that at times only certain people are experiencing. Right. Because then we get to well, that’s not

Abigail:
Fair.

Charlie:
Fair.

Abigail:
But it

Charlie:
is very, very it’s a very different word than just. Right. Because, again, the the way that it gets talked about now very often in political terms is the difference between equality and equity. Mhmm. And now it’s very similar to say to it’s a very similar argument to be made around God being just versus God being fair.

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
Just is everyone gets what they deserve. Fair is everyone gets the same.

Abigail:
Right. And Huge difference.

Charlie:
Right. And and justice isn’t always fair. Right. But fair is often not fair.

Abigail:
Well, because it’s not gonna take into the concerns of the collective, because someone else is going to be affected. Right. But I think that goes back to you didn’t tell me that I was wrong when I said human flourishing. But, like, if we looked at everything, not necessarily, like, what is the direct result of after, why he would have done a natural disaster, or maybe looking at something smaller than natural disaster. It’s like, well, it’s not just cruel and unusual to do something to you, but look at his larger picture of what does he desire out of life and his created beings.

Charlie:
Right.

Abigail:
And that’s a collective rather than me.

Charlie:
If we break the world collectively, and there are at different times in different places, the world demonstrates some of its brokenness, that is a just consequence

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
That feels unfairly distributed. Mhmm. And so then then, like, why why would God do that to them, or why would God let that happen to me? Mhmm. And we don’t think of it in the broader terms of we we broke the world, and God sometimes lets us experience the just and natural consequences of that Right. As opposed to always choosing to be merciful. I’m going to protect them from all of the consequences of the things. Like, if if God doesn’t want, he should do it for everybody all the time.

Abigail:
That’d be awesome.

Charlie:
Well, then but then now God sees us to be just.

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
And now when we say God is loving, we mean God is a softy pushover grandpa type. Mhmm. Oh, don’t yell at that baby. She’s so sweet and precious, and

Abigail:
she’s That’s me.

Charlie:
Standing behind grandpa going, suckers. Yeah. Right. God’s not a he’s not a sucker grandpa. Uh-huh. He is he is he is a good and gracious father. He is a good and gracious king, but kings and fathers and lords and capital g, God has a responsibility, and in a way that is a feels appropriate to him. Mhmm.

Charlie:
Sometimes he restrains his justice, and sometimes he allows his justice.

Abigail:
Mhmm.

Charlie:
If we understand and read the Bible correctly, even the things that we are experiencing now is God restraining his justice. The word that gets used there, and I go we can put this add this word to our list is

Abigail:
wrath. Okay.

Charlie:
And we sometimes can confuse wrath with cruelty. Cruelty is kind of a unwarranted bad, and and we don’t like the word wrath, and so we associate it with that. And wrath is just really a strong bible word for punishment.

Abigail:
Okay.

Charlie:
Punish punishment is what you feel. Wrath is what he does. I show wrath by punishing. Those are synonyms, not the right word, but they’re 2 sides of the same. Yeah. Two sides of the same coin. Mhmm. And and so, you know, weeks weeks.

Abigail:
So everywhere in the bible where it says wrath, you could use the word punish.

Charlie:
Well, I mean, it’s dependent. Punishment is what happens to again, punishment is what happened to you. Wrath is what God experiences. Okay. Right? And so what it says is the wrath of God. Mhmm. Very often, it talks about it being restrained. Okay.

Charlie:
That if he wanted to punish, he would be just in allowing way more consequences. Mhmm. All the way up into and including, like, what happened with Noah’s ark. The flood. Like, you guys have you guys have completely lost the thread here, and I’m gonna I’m gonna wipe I’m gonna I’m gonna wipe out and start over.

Abigail:
Mhmm.

Charlie:
That feels cruel, but if we trust God, then it was a just punishment, and then he comes back to Noah afterwards and says, I will never do that again. I put the rainbow in the sky. I’m never gonna do that again. He doesn’t say he’s not ever gonna do it again because we won’t deserve it again.

Abigail:
Right. He’s just choosing He’s to not willing to which

Charlie:
I’m no longer willing to punish you

Abigail:
Mhmm.

Charlie:
Like that again. So if we if we take the story of Noah’s ark at its word, then everything that we’re experiencing is God holding back Right. Wrath. Mhmm. But we we expect all all good things all the time. We decide that’s the normal. I’m I’ll tell you this. It’s one of my favorite little stories.

Charlie:
I forget who I stole this from. I’ll just pretend like I I came up with this story, Abigail. So I come to your house 1 o’clock in the afternoon. I knock on the door. I’m like, hey. What are you doing here? It’s like, I just thought of you today, and I wanted to give you a $100. I ain’t doing $100. I come back the next day right at 1 o’clock.

Charlie:
Knock on the door. Hey. What are you doing here again? Well, I just thought about you. I wanna give you another $100.

Abigail:
Yeah.

Charlie:
To you. Day 3 rolls around. 1 o’clock, knock on the door. You see me there, and you’re like and you’re thinking

Abigail:
Yeah.

Charlie:
$100.

Abigail:
Yeah.

Charlie:
Right? So I give it to you. Day 4 rolls around. It’s 1258. Where are you?

Abigail:
At the door waiting for you. At the

Charlie:
door waiting. Right? But so I I come I come again. Mhmm. Like, by day 6 or 7, maybe you’ve got cookies.

Abigail:
Absolutely. I wanna make it a good stay for you while you drop off your $100.

Charlie:
It’s 20 5 days in a row, this happens.

Abigail:
K.

Charlie:
Day 26, I don’t show up. Day 27, I don’t show up. Day 28, I don’t show up. Day 29, I don’t show up. Day 30, you see me out somewhere. What are you saying to me?

Abigail:
Where you been?

Charlie:
Are you upset?

Abigail:
I probably

Charlie:
no. You should have been. I should have been. You shouldn’t be. I should. You shouldn’t be. Right. But a little bit, you’re like,

Abigail:
we had a good day going. Then.

Charlie:
Yeah. You know? You never did anything in any of the 25 days to earn that $100, but you lived under it for so long Right. That it became to be normal and expected. Mhmm. And, God, we live that way day to day, especially as Americans Mhmm. Placed with a lot of restrained wrath, a lot of restrained justice, a lot of restrained punishment that it is shocking to us when we have to experience Anything other than that. Anything other than that. Right.

Charlie:
And so that makes us question the character of God as opposed to being a reminder of, oh, yeah. We did break this world, didn’t we? Mhmm. And my sin should have a consequence, and I should be really, really thankful

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
For all the times that I didn’t.

Abigail:
Mhmm.

Charlie:
And we have especially as believers, we live so much under the grace of God that we’ve decided that grace is normal. So if this is justice and we live in grace and the grace is above that, then suddenly what seems just

Abigail:
Should be up there.

Charlie:
Bar moves up to what grace is. Mhmm. And in order for God to be gracious, he has to be even more gracious than normal grace.

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
Normal grace is I live in it so long after 25 days of getting a $100. Day 26, I don’t get the $100. That’s a that’s a character defect of God rather than a wake up call for Right. How good God has been.

Abigail:
Mhmm.

Charlie:
And so and we again, we every every point of theology touches on another one. And so we’ll spend some time talking about, like, kind of what is sin is and what is the just consequence of sin. But I think it is important for us as we are trying to put our mind around the overall character of God that we don’t pick 1 and allow it to live in a vacuum. Right. I said this to somebody at church on Sunday. We’re talking about some other topic. It’s like, I just I just struggle with this, this, and this. And I was like, well, the Bible teaches those things, but that’s not the only thing that The Bible teaches on.

Charlie:
Right? So the Bible does say that God is loving, but it’s not the only thing that it says to describe God. Right. God is God is loving. God is just. God is gracious. God is merciful, and we have rebelled severely against him. Mhmm. And we have kind of put God in a situation where these two different characteristics, his goodness and his justice, are now we’ve putting God in a bind is the wrong way to say it.

Charlie:
Mhmm. Because it’s not like he is oh, I gotta think about this. I don’t know what to do. Right. But we’ve kind of allowed we’ve kind of put God in a situation where, well, I I always want to be good Mhmm. But now you’ve placed me in a situation where I have to be just.

Abigail:
And

Charlie:
And but I and but he he can perfectly do both. And now now, ultimately, what it leads up to us is when I experience this world, I see the way that things are, I learn about sin, I learn about holiness, I learn about all these things, do I trust that in all of these situations that God is being good, that God is still worthy of worship? Do I trust him or my own ability to assess things? Yeah. And, ultimately, it’s gonna make sense that everybody’s got a story or 2 where you’re like, I can’t make sense of that, though. Mhmm. But but why this? Why would why would why would God have allowed this very specific thing? And it’s very normal thing to kind of struggle, but ultimately, again, touching on so many different areas of theology, that really is where faith comes in.

Abigail:
Mhmm.

Charlie:
Do I, in the worst of times

Abigail:
believe that he is still good. Right. Well, and it probably this might not be exactly what you’re talking about with holiness, but we can’t view God through how I would be able to balance justice and mercy in all of those things. I I wouldn’t be able to be fully both

Charlie:
Right.

Abigail:
At the same time, but he’s something so other. And we kinda touched on this last episode where it’s like, just because you can’t put words to it doesn’t mean it’s not true. Right. But being able to have faith that god is capable of being all of those things perfectly and to administer them perfectly Yep. Is another step of faith to it.

Charlie:
Yeah. And so that do I trust in God as he is revealed to me in his scripture and as I experience him in this world, or do I think, no, that’s not how I would do it? Right. Because, you know, what if we have reduced God to what we believe the idealized human should be Mhmm. Then when I mean, then it’s just, you know, it’s just old man with a beard and the clouds, and we’re all we have done is create an idealized version of myself Mhmm. As opposed to worshiping God for who he is. And one of the big things that is going to hit for most people as they kind of wrestle with this, you know, these problems of suffering in the world is it seems like God takes holiness and justice way more seriously Yeah. Than either I want him to or I think that I would.

Abigail:
Right. Or that you maybe even would have expected him to. Right.

Charlie:
And so then once God kind of breaks out of that box, then once something happens where God breaks out of that box, do I do I allow him to do that? And be like, okay, The my box of who I thought God was was the limiting factor there, or do I deny what I’m seeing and try to put God back in that box? Or do I walk away from God altogether? If you’re not gonna stay in the box, I’m out.

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
And ultimately, as we are processing all of these different characteristics of God and how we put them all together and how we experience and experience him both in scripture and in our day to day lives, we need to have an attitude of, like, I’m not going to let any box constrain him.

Abigail:
Mhmm.

Charlie:
I’m going to learn who he is as he has revealed himself Yeah. As opposed to who I wish he were.

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
I’m gonna worship the God, not my God. My

Abigail:
God. Right.

Charlie:
I’ve ranted about this plenty before, haven’t I? Well, my God would never. It’s like, I’m not interested in your God. I’m interested in the

Abigail:
God. Right.

Charlie:
Yeah. So Alright. So I think we got it.

Abigail:
We do. Well, I do have one more question

Charlie:
for you. Oh, you have another question?

Abigail:
I do. Just one last one. Okay. One I’m gonna ask you throughout this whole series.

Charlie:
Okay.

Abigail:
Do you have any book recommendations for this topic exclusively?

Charlie:
There are a couple of books and they are both older books. One is by a guy named Tozer, and it’s called Knowledge of the Holy.

Abigail:
Okay.

Charlie:
It’s a shorter book. It’s pretty intense. And a longer equally intense book is a book called Knowing God by J. I. Packer.

Abigail:
Okay.

Charlie:
And they are both just making you kinda stop and figure out a lot of these different characteristics of God. And how do how do I how do I take these things in and how do I experience in them? And so I think I was I was like, yes. I’ll say knowledge of the holy is smaller, more intense. JAP hacker is bigger, maybe a little deeper, a little less intense.

Abigail:
Okay.

Charlie:
But they’re both really good.

Abigail:
Okay.

Charlie:
I highly recommend both of them.

Abigail:
Alright. Perfect.

Charlie:
So so thank you, Abigail Of course. As always, and thank you for joining us. And we are gonna start bibliology

Abigail:
Whoop whoop. Study of the bible.

Charlie:
Starting next week, encourage you to come back and join us. And as always, please find us in real life, the growth church.org/connect. We’d love to know you, help you, answer any questions. If you have any questions on any of these topics or ideas for new topics, let us know. You can let us know there. Again, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for listening to the cultivate podcast. Our hope is that you are taking steps to go deeper in your faith that you’re asking big questions and you’re looking for answers.

Charlie:
We hope that we can be a resource for you through our podcast and any other way that we can help you. You can find all our episodes anywhere that you can find podcasts including YouTube. And again, thank you so much for joining us.