Charlie:
The questions we wrestle with as Christians about who God is, how do we live out our faith, what is the Bible, what is the truth of the Bible, what are we supposed to believe? How are we supposed to live? There are really big, deep questions that we ask each other, that we ask God, that we wrestle with ourselves. And that’s why the Cultivate podcast exists, to help us go deeper in our understanding of who God is, his word and the way that he’s called us to live. Hey everyone. Thank you for joining us the Cultivate Podcast with the Grove Church. I’m Charlie Lofton the lead pastor there and we have here with us producer extraordinaire

Abigail:
Thank you.

Charlie:
Expert question asker, and generally all around good person.

Abigail:
Thank you, Jen Ravey.

Charlie:
Abigail Boone.

Abigail:
Thank you.

Charlie:
Here’s something popping in my head the other day. If you had to go by Abby or Gail, like, you have to. Gail?

Abigail:
Yeah. 10 out of 10? Well, Abby is just a really specific personality, I feel like. And my mom named all of her children with names that could be shortened. Joseph, Madeline, Abigail. And none of us has kids. One is our shorter name. Now my brother’s Joe, My Madeline or my Madeline. My sister, she’s still Madeline, and I’m still Abigail.

Abigail:
But then it got broken down into Gail in college, and I didn’t mind it. You

Charlie:
know? Okay. If you are a YouTube watcher of this particular podcast, you’ll see we we had some lighting issues. Yes. So here we are. But we have a

Abigail:
great big window.

Charlie:
Right. And I’m change averse. And so I don’t know sure how I feel about this. I’ll do my very best.

Abigail:
I thought you’re gonna say if you’re a YouTuber, you could find Big Gayle on YouTube because I do have an account out there called Big Gayle because it’s in my name, a Big Gayle.

Charlie:
What?

Abigail:
So my Xbox name, if anyone wants to find me on Xbox, is big gail. Wow.

Charlie:
You have a YouTube channel, big gail. Mhmm. Wow.

Abigail:
Yeah. I don’t know if that’s the public based name.

Charlie:
Content on that? Actually, yeah. Wow. Okay. Big gail it is. Let me have an episode for another day.

Abigail:
Okay. Big deal.

Charlie:
Anyways, we are starting a new series that is gonna last a long time. Yeah. Because I think one of the things that is really important, it’s very important to me, is theology Mhmm. And specifically systematic theology. Seems big. That’s a fancy it’s a fancy

Abigail:
word. Yeah.

Charlie:
And, so we’re just gonna spend some time just kind of walking through belief systems, kind of what we believe, or what kind of we could do it in under the lens of systematic theology. Putting you on the spot here, like, I’m a expert Sure. Question asker.

Abigail:
Yeah.

Charlie:
Do you know what systematic theology is?

Abigail:
I know it is a way of organizing what you believe about God.

Charlie:
That is about as perfect description of what systematic theology can be. It’s perfect. So theology in general is the study of God.

Abigail:
Mhmm.

Charlie:
And systematic theology is putting into categories kind of your major belief systems. Right. So you can organize your theology based on history. What is the church believed over time? Sure. That’s interesting. The 20th century theology or locations, you know, you know, the continent of Africa, the African theology, South American theology, North American theology. You could do it by then, or you could do it by author, you know, Paul’s theology, Moses theology. You can do it by author kind of taking it that way.

Charlie:
There’s lots of different ways to break it. You could break it down, but probably the most popular one, and I and I would say for people who are trying to just really understand what it is I believe as a Christian, I think systematic theology Mhmm. Is the, is the most helpful. Yeah. What does the church believe about this? What do Christians believe about this? So

Abigail:
it’s categorizing.

Charlie:
Yes. You take a category. What do we believe about Jesus?

Abigail:
Yeah.

Charlie:
What do we believe about the Holy Spirit?

Abigail:
Mhmm.

Charlie:
And then you take everything that the Bible says about that topic in that category, and, you know, and then you’ve got this then you’ve got the subset then of systematic theology of what we believe about the Holy Spirit, or what we believe about Jesus. Again, I’m gonna ask you another question. We just we’re just roll over. See, move me to the other side of the room. And now you’re the question asked for

Abigail:
the next room. Right. That’s right.

Charlie:
Yeah. And because when I’m I’m you’re on my yeah. And now you’re on my right.

Abigail:
You usually ask me whatever you want about systematic theology, and I’ll attempt to give you an answer.

Charlie:
Have have you ever have you ever, like, studied it or read books on this a little bit? Ish. So if I were to ask you and then you feel free, wink wink, to ask me why, like, why is it you feel like it is important, and if so, why to kind of study and understand systematic theology?

Abigail:
Well, it has huge implications of why you believe what you believe. Mhmm. And I would assume it’s helpful to have kind of a background knowledge, not that I’m sure systematic theology can get as complicated as you want it to

Charlie:
Right.

Abigail:
But probably good to have a foundation of you could work back from any point and whittle down. Well, this is why I believe that. Mhmm. Because this is in this, and you could build up a logical argument as to why you have come to put faith in these certain things.

Charlie:
Yeah. And I think too, it’s there’s a there’s an anchoredness to it.

Abigail:
Mhmm.

Charlie:
I mean, I think part of our life and even our our own faith journey, even you did you described that. Right? Even she’s even in that the descriptive phrase, the faith journey that you have has an implication of I’m I’m going somewhere. Right. But I think there is an important and now we’re mixing metaphors here. There’s there’s it’s important to have anchors.

Abigail:
Mhmm.

Charlie:
Where or even just kind of boundaries. Yeah. Maybe as if we’re gonna use journey, maybe a fence, but, you know, something that keeps me something that keeps me grounded. Like, as I’m asking questions, as I’m thinking, as I’m exploring, as I’m trying to figure out what I believe to kind of have

Abigail:
Almost like the guardrails.

Charlie:
Yeah. The core beliefs of what Christians believe, can help me stay grounded. And in addition to that, as you’re trying to figure out what do I believe? It was like, what do you believe about what? Right. Sometimes we don’t even know the right questions to ask. And really kind of understanding these primary categories can kind of help us that it can get act both as guardrails and a map in your in your spiritual journey as far as what do Christians believe. And if this is the main categories of when you think about Christian beliefs, These are the categories. Now that can kind of be helpful in me. What do what do I believe about the Holy Spirit? Because if you do a just a fairly unbiased journey and question, like, what does the church believe about the holy spirit? You’re gonna find

Abigail:
So many answers.

Charlie:
You’re gonna find 2 or 3 different answers.

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
Main I mean, more than 2 or 3, but 2 or 3 main categories are very different ideas about the role of the holy spirit and who the holy spirit is. And so but then then that kind of helps you understand. Okay. Well, I need I I I’ve got this category about the Holy Spirit. Now I’ve got these different different ideas that are out there and they can kind of help me again as a map as I’m trying to figure out what do I believe because you can’t just say, well, the here’s what the Christian church believes on these topics. Right? It’s gonna be

Abigail:
seamless

Charlie:
uniform. But then when you when you do make that journey and you really do kind of explore and study systematic theology, you will discover that there are some things that the the church historically and worldwide are actually very

Abigail:
In a good yeah.

Charlie:
And when you find those things, then those are the things that kind of help you understand. Okay. Well, the this is the difference between Christian and not.

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
Yeah. And which ones are just flavors of Christianity and what is the essence of Christianity? Where you find that there are just certain things in Christian theological discussions that no matter whose book you pick up, we all believe

Abigail:
this. This is yeah.

Charlie:
So now I’m trying to help me. This is gonna help me. This is gonna help me because, again, if we’re gonna be doing this for a while, and we end up saying all the things that I would want to say about systematic theology, this ultimately has the potential to be

Abigail:
A year long series.

Charlie:
A year long series that we have to maybe we have to take breaks from if we have other ideas or other things that we wanna do. I ask you, hey, have you studied it? And you go

Abigail:
what is that?

Charlie:
Why? Why only?

Abigail:
Because it’s insanely deep and covers a ton of topics. So I started a workbook over it to study some of those things, and I think we only got through creation and God, and then we just kind of drifted off because it’s such an in-depth study that you can go into. Like I kind of said, you can probably make it as complex as you want to. You can understand the high, easy, low hanging fruit of what they you can understand the categories, or you can go into each category and study deep, deep, deep.

Charlie:
So does it feel overwhelming then

Abigail:
to you?

Charlie:
Not not that it doesn’t feel important. It doesn’t really matter. Right. It just feels overwhelming.

Abigail:
Overwhelming. Yes.

Charlie:
So if someone could break it down into bite size 25 to 32 minutes segments

Abigail:
I would take that.

Charlie:
Of discussion where you could just listen to it as you’re going as you’re driving or you’re going on a walk Yes. Maybe in a podcast format. Yes. Okay.

Abigail:
More digestible.

Charlie:
Okay. Yeah. Well, let’s do that then. Okay. Let’s do that then.

Abigail:
Okay. I’m here for it.

Charlie:
And so there are more than these 10 categories, but for our the sake of our conversation, we’re gonna I want us to think of it in in 10 primary categories.

Abigail:
K.

Charlie:
And if you ever done the thing, let’s just do it right now. Name the 7 dwarves.

Abigail:
Oh, there’s no way I could do that.

Charlie:
Just try.

Abigail:
This is gonna be a really, hard pill to swallow maybe, but I only watched, like, half of that movie once. Really? Could you how many Dopey.

Charlie:
Dopey. Happy. Happy. Sadie. Okay. Never mind. Laughing? I’ll use a different did you ever watch Friends? Of course. Right.

Charlie:
And they were trying to name all 50 states. Right. And they can only come up with, like, 47 or 48 or 49 or something like that. And, like, there’s just some things like Yeah. I know them But

Abigail:
I can’t get to all

Charlie:
of them. Somehow.

Abigail:
Yeah.

Charlie:
Right?

Abigail:
Yeah.

Charlie:
And so I normally don’t use notes, but just to make sure I didn’t forget

Abigail:
have notes this time?

Charlie:
Yeah. Just to make sure I didn’t forget any

Abigail:
of the 10. Now. Okay.

Charlie:
Make sure I don’t forget anything. K. Because I’ve come off the top of my head, then I’m gonna come up with 9. Then we’re gonna come

Abigail:
up with

Charlie:
right here.

Abigail:
Let’s see how many you can say.

Charlie:
Okay. Out of 10. Okay. K. First theology proper. K. Which what do you

Abigail:
think that is? It’s like Dallas proper.

Charlie:
I don’t know. Sure. So what does Dallas proper mean? That means

Abigail:
you live in the actual central zone.

Charlie:
Actual Dallas.

Abigail:
City limits of Dallas. Yes.

Charlie:
You don’t live in the proper than mean?

Abigail:
This is the core of theology. We’re not gonna get out into

Charlie:
the self Theology is the study of God. Okay. So we’re Theology proper is

Abigail:
We’re studying God.

Charlie:
It’s like, specifically who God is.

Abigail:
Okay.

Charlie:
So because, technically, say, studying, like, ecclesiology, the study of the church, that’s not that’s a category. It’s not but theology proper is who is God. Okay? Theology proper. Bibliolyology Study the Bible. Okay. Anthropology.

Abigail:
Oh, really? That’s a study of humans.

Charlie:
K. Hamartiology?

Abigail:
Is that how you understand what the Bible is true or not?

Charlie:
Herman? Bibliology. So a Martiology. Okay. Angelology.

Abigail:
It’s about angels.

Charlie:
Okay. Christology. About Christ. Pneumatology.

Abigail:
Pneuma? Numbers, breath. Holy Spirit.

Charlie:
Holy Spirit. Soteriology, the study of salvation.

Abigail:
Okay.

Charlie:
Ecclesiology. You just said it,

Abigail:
and I don’t remember

Charlie:
Study the church and eschatology. End times. End times. Okay. Hail. 10 out of 10.

Abigail:
You got it.

Charlie:
10 out of 10.

Abigail:
Okay.

Charlie:
And so we’re just what I want us to do is just kinda go on a journey and just kind of work our way through those things because I think it is important. I think those are the 10 primary categories of which we need to really be thinking about what it is we believe. And again, as you’re kind of walking through this with us, I want you to think about it both in terms of guardrails and a map because I think the the guardrails can help us understand these are the things that if I want to remain inside the Christian faith, these are these are kind of the things that the the anchor points because sometimes and I’ve seen this. I’ve seen this with friends. I’ve seen this with people that come to our church. They start asking questions, and they start and and and eventually, they kinda put everything up for grabs, and they end up in a place where they don’t wanna go. And they’re

Abigail:
Sounds like having no

Charlie:
gravity. Right.

Abigail:
Truly. And

Charlie:
that’s and that’s that sounds really fun. Like, what if there wasn’t gravity and you could just kind of swim kinda float? Mm-mm. And it would be you can just got to just kinda fly to where I wanted to go, and that’s all well and good.

Abigail:
Until you can’t get back Right. To the ground.

Charlie:
And and it’s not like if if there’s no gravity, it’s not like, well, I’m just gonna stay a safe 3 feet above the ground.

Abigail:
You gotta keep going. Right.

Charlie:
I need a ceiling.

Abigail:
I need something. Yeah.

Charlie:
I need to be tethered. Yes. And I think it acts it acts as kind of a tether, but also it can kind of help us again to understand, you know, what what the different options are and kind of help us to understand what what are the right questions

Abigail:
To be asking. To be

Charlie:
And so when we think about staying grounded, this is something I know that you and I have talked about before, and I think we’ve talked about on this podcast is kind of, like, even as we are working our way through these 10 categories, even within these categories, I want us to think about the relative weightiness of each one of them. Sure. Mhmm. And so the analogy that I’ve used for this in the past and will continue to use is a house. Mhmm. And the first thing you think about a house is where I want to build the house. And if we’re building our house in Christian soil, in the Christian he’s a Christian neighborhood that sounds okay. Now now he’s not it’s not it’s not that it’s not that it’s not great.

Charlie:
But anyways, I wanna build my theological house in Christian soil so that, like, I wanna be a Christian. So what are what are the absolute must believes in order to be a Christian? If I believe them, I’m a Christian. If I don’t, then I’m a a Muslim Right. Or an atheist or whatever.

Abigail:
Which I think some people could kinda get ruffled a little bit when we say there are guardrails or there is soil. Right. Because we live in a country or a culture that is pretty open to that, but I think it is something to say this is a definite line in the sand of you’re either gonna build incursion soil and this is what grows out of that.

Charlie:
Well, this is gonna sound the way that I’m gonna say this is gonna sound like I’m saying something that I’m not. It’s gonna sound more controversial than I mean for it too, but we kind of live in a world where a lot of, like, I am who I say that I am. Right. If I identify this way, then that is what I am. And again, I’m not making a transgender reference there. I was thinking

Abigail:
More like a self actualized.

Charlie:
Right. Like like, I mean, if you just think about it in in political terms, if I believe everything Republicans believe, but I say I’m a Democrat.

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
I mean, I get I get I I guess. And in the sense and in one sense, I mean, if you’re talking about I am a person who is affiliated loosely with the religion, then I guess you can self identify as a Christian. Yeah. I am a Christian. But if you wanna talk about what is a Christian, again, that’s a theological concept.

Abigail:
Right. What

Charlie:
does it really mean to be someone who follows Jesus? Who is a believer in Christian beliefs, and what are what are the core elements upon which this is what unites Christians? And, again, it is deeper than simply an affinity towards Jesus.

Abigail:
Right. It’s alignment with

Charlie:
Because if affinity towards Jesus is enough to make you a Christian, then Muslims are Christian.

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
And if Muslims are you should try that sometime. Yeah. Hey. Based on my definition of Christian, my Muslim friend, you’re a Christian. I mean no. No. And so beyond just the simple self identification of I am if I am affiliated with any religion, it’s this one. What are the core beliefs? And then you can decide if you accept them or not.

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
But again, I think if we if we discuss this, we kinda work our way through. We’ll discover that there are there are some core beliefs about God and about Jesus, about sin, about life that are not culturally limited and not time limited.

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
That we could pick up a a first century theology manuscript. And they

Abigail:
may argue in the same point. Point?

Charlie:
Yeah.

Abigail:
Yeah.

Charlie:
And and and the things that we’re battling right now of whether or not that’s Christian or not, people come up with a new idea. I see these people all the time. They come to me with some new theological idea, and I was like, man, I I I allow me to show you the transcript from the Council of Carthage.

Abigail:
Right. And they’re in the 18th century. Right?

Charlie:
I mean, that is that is just a very, different way of describing a heresy about the nature of Jesus Right. That the the church put down 1800 years ago.

Abigail:
Right. Yeah.

Charlie:
And so there are these kind of core beliefs that make something Christian. And then on that, as you’re building your house, you’ve kind of got these foundational truths that really are going to keep your house stable. I mean, they’re the kind of things that maybe I don’t believe them at first. Maybe I maybe I don’t maybe I don’t know enough to know. All I know is that, all I know is that I need Jesus, and I understand who Jesus’ concept of God and me, but I I I don’t I didn’t know this thing about the Bible. I didn’t know this thing about the Holy Spirit until someone taught me.

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
And so I can start building my house

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
Without it. But if I’m gonna build a stable house You’re

Abigail:
gonna add

Charlie:
to that. Foundational truths on me. So I think it’s important. That distinction is important to

Abigail:
me. Mhmm. Does

Charlie:
that make sense to you? Yeah. The difference in the soil and the foundation?

Abigail:
Yeah. You’re gonna, yeah, you have room to grow, but growing stably and healthily on that soil is gonna require you diving into some of these topics.

Charlie:
You can have a house Mhmm. In the Christian soil and be wrong on these things.

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
But in the long term, it will not be a stable house.

Abigail:
Right. Yeah.

Charlie:
Right? But, otherwise, if you’re not even building in the soil, then you’re not usually Yeah. You’re you’re building your own philosophy somewhere. You’re gonna accidentally realize, woah. I I didn’t realize this, but when you put it all together, it turns out I’m a Buddhist. Right. Right. Okay. So and then on top of that, you’ve got the things maybe the the structure of your house, which are things that are important and different houses look differently.

Charlie:
They all have the same foundation. They’re built on the same soil, but they’re gonna look a little bit different. The structure is going to be different. And those are the things that I think that are important for us to talk about, and we need to understand the differences. These are the things that we’ll say, we agreed to disagree on.

Abigail:
Mhmm.

Charlie:
But we

Abigail:
But everything else beneath it.

Charlie:
Do disagree. Mhmm. It’s important enough to where maybe we should worship over here on Sunday Right. And you should worship over there on Sunday, but I’m not gonna be surprised when we’re together in heaven.

Abigail:
Right.

Charlie:
And we can we can we and we’ll be friendly to each other.

Abigail:
Yeah.

Charlie:
You know, it’s like we we we are also Christians. Hey. I understand that you believe that. I don’t for these reasons. High five. Let’s go Right. Let’s go do this thing together. And then beyond that are the things that we’ll just call the decorations of the house.

Charlie:
There’s things that are just interesting that it’s just like, man, I don’t even know agree to disagree is even

Abigail:
Necessary. Yeah.

Charlie:
I mean, it’s just like, this is what I think. It’s like, oh, this is what I think.

Abigail:
Anyways Yeah. I mean, it’s just kind

Charlie:
of things that are just kind of interesting to talk about. And so in these 10 categories, most of them will have something some connection to the soil. Yeah. All of them will have some connection to the foundation, but all of them also will have bits of all of it. Yeah. So you think about, oh, Christology, that’s definitely soil. Well, there are lots of parts of Christology that are definitely soil, but the deeper you go into it, you can kinda be like

Abigail:
Maybe it’s a picture on the wall.

Charlie:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this there’s some of the nuance to differences about things. And so we will spend most of our time talking about soil and foundational things.

Abigail:
Okay.

Charlie:
Delving into important. And then the only way you’ll probably get me into the interesting do you know how?

Abigail:
What was that last one?

Charlie:
Import the just the interesting stuff.

Abigail:
The the last number 10.

Charlie:
Eschatology? Yeah. Yeah. The only way you’re gonna be able to get me into that is, q and a. Okay. Not not not eschatology because I think there are some things, and we talked about we actually did we did talk about this recently because of our our summer slam series that we did. There are some things I think that are really important to understand

Abigail:
Yeah.

Charlie:
That Jesus is coming back and to not be deceived, take hope when the world is going. Like, those are important things. But all of those things, all of those 10 categories will have some things that are ultimately kinda moved to just interesting. And if you ask a question, I’ll answer it.

Abigail:
Yeah.

Charlie:
But we’re gonna spend the bulk of our time talking about what are the core foundational beliefs that Christian should have, and then at least introduce the idea of here are the important things for us to be considering. That make sense?

Abigail:
Mhmm.

Charlie:
Let’s do that then. Okay.

Abigail:
So theology proper.

Charlie:
Theology proper. That’s where we’ll start. Yeah. We’ll start next time, theology proper. Okay. And got a couple of, I think, things that are really important for us to discuss there, and then we’ll just see where we go from here.

Abigail:
I’m excited for it.

Charlie:
You are you?

Abigail:
I really am. Yeah.

Charlie:
We can move in moving from

Abigail:
to to a. I think it’d be helpful just to have and maybe this is because I’m a logically based person. That’s the way my brain works. But to be able to more seamlessly work through why I believe what I believe and rather than it just being kinda like, no, no. I don’t know. Other people studied it and I trust them. I think it would be cool to have kind of a background knowledge of my own Right. To be able to work through some of these categories that are important to someone’s faith.

Charlie:
Yeah. I mean, because you this the the you need an anchor for a couple of different things. You you be tethered in some way because I’m going on some journey, and I need to make sure I stay grounded into reality, or I’m not going anywhere, but a stiff wind could knock me over.

Abigail:
Right. Yeah.

Charlie:
And if I’m not really grounded well in what I believe, somebody else’s journey, somebody else’s questions could devastate me because I’m not grounded enough to kinda have both my feet Right. Solidly planted in

Abigail:
Yeah.

Charlie:
What I believe as a follower of Jesus Christ.

Abigail:
Which can lead the person to the no gravity of

Charlie:
Right.

Abigail:
They’re just drifting off one day. They think this thing, and then a year later, they’re Right. However much further away from the point.

Charlie:
And so we’ll try to keep it interesting.

Abigail:
I think it will be interesting. Shifting? Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Charlie:
Try. Then what what it means?

Abigail:
I’m gonna try. It will be.

Charlie:
Oh, it will be. It will be. So we’re not okay. Alright. Perfect. So if it starts getting too, professor lecturely lecturey, will you

Abigail:
We’ll do a q and a.

Charlie:
You’ll slap me around a little bit. It’s like, stop. You you you wear me out, dude. Yes. Okay. Yes. So you’re you’re gonna keep me grounded. Yes.

Charlie:
And interesting. Yes. Okay. Perfect.

Abigail:
Yes.

Charlie:
Well, thank you guys, for for joining us. We are I really do hope. I really hope that you will join us over the next several weeks as we just spend some time really asking, trying to answer some significant questions about what we believe as followers of Jesus Christ and why it’s important so that we can both stay grounded and at the same time go deeper in our understanding of who God is, who we are, and what he’s called us to. So if you have any theological questions of any sort, we would love to hear them. Email me at [email protected] and we will incorporate them. And we would love to hear thoughts, questions, comments that you have anytime. And as always, we’d love to help you get connected at our church. You can go to the growthchurch.org slash connect.

Charlie:
Learn all about us. And again, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for listening to the cultivate podcast. Our hope is that you are taking steps to go deeper in your faith that you’re asking big questions and you’re looking for answers. We hope that we can be a resource for you through our podcast and any other way that we can help you. You can find all our episodes anywhere that you can find podcasts including YouTube. And, again, thank you so much for joining us.